US style policing in Godzone?

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10 years 8 months ago #35763 by spark
Hi,

You may have heard about the recent police shooting in Hawkes Bay?
" ...who was shot by an armed officer after lying face-down and being handcuffed yesterday."
www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10913551

From what I know about the Bushmaster rifle and shooting accidents in general, I strongly suspect that there was not a mechanical malfunction of the rifle, that the problem was simply a finger in the trigger guard and the rifle not pointed in a safe direction (likekly - the police officer and or the rifle was bumped, triggering the rifle, or the officer flinched for some reason, clenching the trigger finger...)

Which raises the big question - Should the police point firearms at suspects that have surrendered and are complying with police instructions?

Here is another incident:
"We were concerned about the apparent extreme use of force on these young people – especially the use of guns held to their heads while they were on the ground and handcuffed,"
static2.stuff.co.nz/1279682768/886/3940886.jpg

At least the police officer's finger was outside of the trigger guard when the photo was taken. Given that the suspects were lying on the ground and handcuffed, why did the officer need to continue to point the rifle at them? to stop them from getting up and running away?

Then there was the over the top raid on the Kim dot com mansion (full Special Tactics Group deployment for a suspect accused of non-violent white collar crimes, with a prior history of non-violent white collar offending).

This isn't intended to be an anti-gun post (I admit that I am a gun-nut), and it isn't meant to be anti-police either - it's a should we go down the USA's path of full on "felony stops" and "kick the door in and charge in with guns drawn" etc? or is pointing a firearm at a suspect a really dangerous, hostile act that should only be practiced when their is no reasonable alternative?

I'd like to hear your two cents on this, especially if you have experience either as an armed police officer, or as the suspect on the other end of the weapon.

Cheers

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10 years 8 months ago #467946 by Stikkibeek
One good reason not to arm police fully. I wonder if there is any statistics available on accidental shootings per capita, in countries where officers are fully armed.

Did you know, that what you thought I said, was not what I meant :S

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10 years 8 months ago #467955 by Deanna
Waiting to hear the outcome, before I surmise. And praying the victim is going to be ok.

25 acres, 1400 Blue Gums, Wiltshire sheep, 5 steers, 2 cows, ducks, chickens, bees, dog, cats, retired, 1 husband and 3 grandkids.

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10 years 8 months ago #467958 by judes
Replied by judes on topic US style policing in Godzone?
My thoughts are with the policeman.

Jude
Don't get your knickers in a knot; it solves nothing and makes you walk funny.

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10 years 8 months ago #467960 by kindajojo
There is of course a really simple way of reducing these police incidents and that is to get idiots to stop waiving guns around at family, similarly police chases/crashes could be easily sorted if the offender would just stop. Maybe it should be impressed on kids, if you chose to commit
an offence the consequences are anything from a warning to DEATH.

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10 years 8 months ago #467961 by max2
Replied by max2 on topic US style policing in Godzone?
There isn't enough support for the police, their families or victims of hoons/criminals, rather the media concentrates on how ''badly'' the person has been treated who was undertaking a crime that brought them to police attention in the first instance.

We are asking police to make quick, stressful decisions in times of high personal risk. Their families don't really know if they should expect them home each time they leave for work. Is that fair? Is it fair for someone to be shot and murdered because he was running away from a house/situation whilst doing his job?

Why would you want to be a cop in New Zealand?

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10 years 8 months ago #467965 by Aquila
The problem isn't arming police or not, it's not the idiots that run, police need range time and lots of it. If they were better trained to use the tools they are given to work with then they'd be better with those tools. Look on TV, it's always the brand new cop that gets gunned up because the last time anybody touched a firearm was college. It's scary that most firearm owners in this country are better trained than our police.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

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10 years 8 months ago #467999 by Crusha
You might find that the number of accidental shootings by hunters far outweighs the number of accidental shootings by Police.

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10 years 8 months ago #468001 by Aquila
Yes but you'd be surprised if you manipulated the numbers and looked for AD's (Accidental Discharges) as Police report and investigate each one and civvys don't normally report them.

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10 years 8 months ago #468012 by KaiapoiKen
Aquila, with respect you don't know what you are talking about. I have a close family member in the force and they have a considerable amount of training right from the time they leave college. Unfortunately there are always going to be some who will make mistakes as for saying that firearms holders are better trained, give us a break, the firearms holders do not train as much as police do despite you're statement and have a helluva lot more accidents. THAT is proven.

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10 years 8 months ago #468014 by Aquila
Sorry Ken but the Police I've talked to (Who number quite a few considering I'm Chairman of Christchurch Search And Rescue) all say they feel they lack anywhere near enough training in firearm use to be competent. This mainly stems from the fact that access, training and range time are limited.

Perhaps what your close family member of Police considers considerable and what the Police I've talked to about the subject consider considerable are two very different quantities. Perhaps your close family member is an AOS Member, STG Member or team policing Member, In which case they probably do get a heap of training with firearms. I don't know and I don't need to know.

Please consider for a second what I said in my previous post. Police will have a lot more REPORTED Incidents of AD than Civvies simply because Civvies are not required to report them. All depends how you set the conditions of the scenario.

I know that in Virginia USA, When they made wearing Blaze Orange mandatory while hunting that people still got shot. In my opinion that happened because people still shot at movement OR sound OR shape OR noise or colour rather than movement AND sound AND shape AND noise AND colour which equalled a deer without any question.

Ask your close family member about the AD with a Bushmaster in the CHCH Central Police station that led to a bit more training for everyone in Blue. It's a good story.

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10 years 8 months ago #468028 by Scuba_Steve
Police are NOT trained enough to operate firearms, I believe police have a much higher accidental discharge rate than hunters (relatively speaking) as hunters are usually taught proper gun control.
The big problem is the accounting team runs the Police firearms training i.e. in the name of cost cutting range time is heavily restricted almost to the point of "this is a gun, here's the safety, here's the trigger, shoot that target a couple times, good you hit it see you next year" and this is a BIG reason not to arm police, they don't even train the few they have armed now


Science is but an organized system of ignorance

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10 years 8 months ago #468032 by igor
Replied by igor on topic US style policing in Godzone?
I believe in arming all the police. The real problem I see lies in training budgets, or the lack of them, as stated by Aquila and Scuba Steve. Like any tool a policeman's gun can only be used safely and effectively when the user is fully trained and proven to be competent in its use and when not to use it. Additionally a handgun is no use at all in a locked box in the car. It must be worn on the officer's person in such a manner as to be immediately available when needed.

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10 years 8 months ago #468045 by jennym
Which raises the big question - Should the police point firearms at suspects that have surrendered and are complying with police instructions?

that is the question: the answer is no.

only use the gun when it is needed.
this is an attitude issue rather than a skill at guns issue.

(not to say that policemen should not be trained in gun safety and usage)

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10 years 8 months ago #468075 by belinda_h
The "idiot" waving a gun around was a man with pretty serious mental health issues from what I can glean from media reports. Not a hoon, not a criminal but someone who, for whatever reason, was having significant problems. According to police he was unarmed and had co-operated fully which is how he came to be handcuffed and lying on the ground. To imply, as some have here, that he somehow brought this on himself by acting stupidly or criminally, is just wrong. Police themselves have said he was blameless.

"It's important to remember Mr Pere is a victim in this matter," said police acting assistant commissioner investigations Glenn Dunbier. (from a Stuff report)

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